Cry for help!

Jean B.
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Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Hello guys, I guess I need your help! I've been asked to build a race car :shock: , and you know that you could also ask a sea-dog to dance cha-cha. However, I'd like to inform the interested person about the availability of an appropriate model, at least. The subject is

BMW ADAC Formel Junior - Team Abt Motorsport - Fahrzeug Abt Formel junior, Ralf Schumacher 1993

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Does anyone of you know whether a 1/43 model of this one exists, or any similar type? Thanks a lot for your help in advance!

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Jean B. wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:29 am
Hello guys, I guess I need your help! I've been asked to build a race car :shock: , and you know that you could also ask a sea-dog to dance cha-cha. However, I'd like to inform the interested person about the availability of an appropriate model, at least. The subject is

BMW ADAC Formel Junior - Team Abt Motorsport - Fahrzeug Abt Formel junior, Ralf Schumacher 1993

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Does anyone of you know whether a 1/43 model of this one exists, or any similar type? Thanks a lot for your help in advance!
If I were on the hook for this build (I'm glad I'm not) I would probably start with a 1990's era Reynard F3 car. Minichamps made some in diecast:

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I know you prefer white metal, but these are close enough in shape that a bit of grinding/filing and putty should produce a good result. If you find two of them the front wheels/tires may work for all four corners of the Formula Junior. I'm sure the wings and suspension will be no problem for you to scratch build (or wheels and tires, if need be).

I see some for $80-$90 US on ebay

Jager
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jager »

While the shape of the Formula Junior and Formula 3 cars is similar, I think the Formula Junior cars would be smaller (shorter in length, width and possibly height).

Formula Junior was a feeder series for F3. While the F3 cars ran 2 litre engines, I suspect Formula Junior ran smaller 1.6 litre engines. You probably need to google the race regulations for the cars to understand if they were similar or not.
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Jager wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:16 pm
While the shape of the Formula Junior and Formula 3 cars is similar, I think the Formula Junior cars would be smaller (shorter in length, width and possibly height).

Formula Junior was a feeder series for F3. While the F3 cars ran 2 litre engines, I suspect Formula Junior ran smaller 1.6 litre engines. You probably need to google the race regulations for the cars to understand if they were similar or not.
They can't be too much smaller and still fit the driver, can they? I mean the same drivers participated in both series. I think the idea of searching the reg's is a good one. These builders weren't flush with money so I'm betting there is a lot of parts that cross over. A 1.6 and a 2.0 would probably use the same block. right? Wheelbase is an easy fix, height has to do with the rear wing, which needs to be scratch built anyway. I suspect width is determined by the wheels, not the body. But I'm just a loudmouth Yankee, so what do I know? ;)

Jager
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jager »

Alex_W wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:42 pm
They can't be too much smaller and still fit the driver, can they? I mean the same drivers participated in both series.
Generally ever category of open wheel racing is a step up from the next in terms of size and power.

Go karts lead to Formula Ford
Formula Ford leads to Formula Junior (or these days F4)
F4 leads to F3/GP3
F3 to GP2
GP2 to F1

(Unless your name is Max Verstappen then you just go from Step 1 to Step 5 and skip everything in between.

Here's an interesting size comparison of current F1 and GP3 cars.

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Same drivers, the only difference is 2 or 3 years experience (and maybe $20million in personal sponsorship).
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Yeah. Modern F1 cars are huge.

From what I've found, the ADAC uses a single chassis manufacturer (BMW since 2000) and a modified motorcycle engine.

The shape looks close on the F3 car, though it might make a model that is slightly over-scale if you are correct about the size difference.

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Dear Alex, dear Ian: Thank you so much for your kind help, I knew I could rely on you :P I would've had no idea only for what I should look for... So I could inform my (not-yet) customer about what he should be aware of :) By the way, your posts are quite interesting, even for me :oops: Perhaps I'll be an expert for race cars, too, sometime :lol:

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Jean B. wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:05 pm
Dear Alex, dear Ian: Thank you so much for your kind help, I knew I could rely on you :P I would've had no idea only for what I should look for... So I could inform my (not-yet) customer about what he should be aware of :) By the way, your posts are quite interesting, even for me :oops: Perhaps I'll be an expert for race cars, too, sometime :lol:
You're welcome. If you decide to proceed with the build, let me know. I know a few places that you can contact to get custom decals printed.

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Meanwhile I've got the order for making this model, based - as recommended by you - on the Minichamps Reynard F3.

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The model as delivered.

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Luckily it's screwed and not glued together.

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Disassembled.

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Acrylic paint without primer is stripped off in acetone within a few minutes :)

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Everything clean and ready for converting.

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These two or three photos...

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...are the only I could find. So if anyone of you cracks would have more information of how such a racer should look like or how certain details should be converted, I'd appreciate any response! You know, normally I'm dealing with Art-Déco cars, so this one's for me like a trip to Mars... :)

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

It's cool that you are taking this on.

If it were me I'd start with that side shot of the race car. I'd make a silhouette of the race car photo, then I'd try to take a photo of the model from the same angle and overlay them in GIMP or Photoshop and see where they differ in profile. It should also give you a pretty good idea of wheel and tire circumference.

You've got a good shot of the suspension, which will be helpful.

Will the car be mounted on a base when finished?

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Here is a good suspension/side pod shot:

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The rods in front of the upper A-arm are steering arms. Note the brake lines taped to the front of the lower A-arms.

Here is a 3/4 rear shot:

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Straight on side shot:

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This is a 1993 car like the one you are modeling.

I noticed that the wheels on the "display" car in your first post are different than the race wheels. I suspect the display car has more modern wheels than it raced with.

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Hi Alex, that's simply great, thank you so much! I thought I had no chance to get any further pics of this racer, but those you've posted are fantastic! I've already proceeded works and only referred to the pictures I had, but I think I'm on the right way. I simply do not know whether to change the rods of the front wheels... :roll: Of course this would be very nice to have it authentic, on the other hand I have no idea how to do this really accurate. I guess I have to sleep over that matter some further nights...

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Some first markings which details should be changed.

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The roll bar should be opened.

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Done.

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The two halves of the rear axle should be combined for better working.

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...like this.

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The cutout for the drivers compartment is altered.

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Tricky to get the very small wheels out of the very wide and tight tyres. By the way: Are the tyres on the original car made by Michelin? And what about those two yellow strips (?) on the wheel rims (I mean on the colour pictures)?

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The coolers (?) should get a completely new shape, I will make them by photo-etching.

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The front spoiler is bent, the side parts have a wrong shape.

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Not ready, but already much better.

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Tidying up the bottom side...

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Removing the small fins.

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Tom
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Tom »

That is really impressive.

Jager
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jager »

Jean B. wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:51 am
By the way: Are the tyres on the original car made by Michelin?
I'm following this with interest Jean since its so different to your usual work. In answer to your question, you can see that one of the sponsor logos on the car in the pictures was Pirelli, so I think its safe to assume it ran on Pirelli tyres.
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Tom wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:58 am
That is really impressive.
Thanks :) , but let's see how all this will turn out...
Jager wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:33 am
I'm following this with interest Jean since its so different to your usual work. In answer to your question, you can see that one of the sponsor logos on the car in the pictures was Pirelli, so I think its safe to assume it ran on Pirelli tyres.
In Germany we say: I've been presented to this like a virgin to a child. :D Great idea with "Pirelli", now, how to get this script on the rubber tyre...?

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Starting with the first p/e parts.

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The template for the front hood (?).

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One of the side air intakes.

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Filled with solder from the bottom side...

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...for having enough material to round the edges all along.

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The new rims have exactly the correct diameter :P

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Now the original wheels can be milled out.

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Scribing in the fugues.

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Not that bad...

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Getting rid of the original air intakes...

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...and mounting the new one.

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I'm in need of further p/e parts, as it seems... ;)

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Tameo used to do their photo-etched suspension in one piece for each corner so they could be folded into shape. They are the silver parts in the center of this photo.

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You might be able to do the front and/or rear each as a single piece with the lower A-arms connected and passing through the chassis for added strength.

You may be able to modify the existing plastic suspension instead. The rear looks pretty close already. The front looks like the trailing edge of the upper A-arm will need to be attached further forward on the chassis.

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Alex_W wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:36 pm
Tameo used to do their photo-etched suspension in one piece for each corner so they could be folded into shape. They are the silver parts in the center of this photo. You might be able to do the front and/or rear each as a single piece with the lower A-arms connected and passing through the chassis for added strength. You may be able to modify the existing plastic suspension instead. The rear looks pretty close already. The front looks like the trailing edge of the upper A-arm will need to be attached further forward on the chassis.
...you may laugh, I had something like this already in mind... ;) But I also have another idea, I guess over x-mas I won't do this, so I can make up my mind about "how to"...

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

It looks really good so far. I must get off my ar$e and learn to photo-etch. It really opens up new possibilities.

reeft1
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by reeft1 »

You can buy pirelli curved tyre 1/43 waterslide decals on eBay or via shops like grandprixmodels.com Jean.

Rgds

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Alex_W wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:19 pm
It looks really good so far. I must get off my ar$e and learn to photo-etch. It really opens up new possibilities.
Endless possibilities :D ! A life without photo-etching is possible, yet it lacks any sense :lol:
reeft1 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:08 am
You can buy pirelli curved tyre 1/43 waterslide decals on eBay or via shops like grandprixmodels.com Jean. Rgds
Thanks for the hint, I know that those are available. However, the tyres are made of rather soft rubber, and I fear that decals won't stick well on those tyres. Furthermore decals are a little bit shiny, so I plan to airbrush the scripts directly onto the tyres. I'll keep you informed ;)

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Making nails with heads (as we say in Germany): cutting off the suspension rods. They are in a wrong position and the soft PVC looks rather ugly.

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The holes and gaps then have to be filled in with putty.

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Making the suspension only with p/e parts is not my favourite idea, as the different angles are difficult to plan and the p/e parts would be flat. So I decided to take 1.00mm brass tube, black-burnished, to fix on p/e disc brakes which are to be equipped with small pins. (Hope you can understand what I mean, it's difficult enough to describe in German ;) )

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The body is meanwhile made over with putty and slowly gets its final shape.

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Jager
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jager »

Jean, maybe it's the angle of the photo, but those side pods don't look wide enough. Looking at the head on black and white photo, they should equivalent to roughly 50% of the cockpit width at the widest part (or a bit wider than the tyres).
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

Alex_W
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Alex_W »

Jager wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:56 pm
Jean, maybe it's the angle of the photo, but those side pods don't look wide enough. Looking at the head on black and white photo, they should equivalent to roughly 50% of the cockpit width at the widest part (or a bit wider than the tyres).
I don't think the photo-etched pods are mounted yet.

Jager
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jager »

Alex_W wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:05 pm
Jager wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:56 pm
Jean, maybe it's the angle of the photo, but those side pods don't look wide enough. Looking at the head on black and white photo, they should equivalent to roughly 50% of the cockpit width at the widest part (or a bit wider than the tyres).
I don't think the photo-etched pods are mounted yet.
That's what happens when you're browsing the forum on your phone :oops: .
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” - Steve McQueen

Jean B.
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Re: Cry for help!

Post by Jean B. »

Jager wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:46 pm
Alex_W wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:05 pm
Jager wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:56 pm
Jean, maybe it's the angle of the photo, but those side pods don't look wide enough. Looking at the head on black and white photo, they should equivalent to roughly 50% of the cockpit width at the widest part (or a bit wider than the tyres).
I don't think the photo-etched pods are mounted yet.
That's what happens when you're browsing the forum on your phone :oops: .
@Alex & Ian:

The pod was already mounted, but removed for works on the body. But: I made only the single right one, as I knew that this wouldn't be the final version :) Originally it had correct dimensions, but milling out the curved inside, it became narrower all the time... :roll: So I followed your advice and changed the graphic. Generally wider, and the "elbows" are sharper. Here's the result:

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First version and new version.

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Both sides new.

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I guess the rear end of the pods should be narrower, the last 2/3 more curved, what do you think :?:

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